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Post by Derek on Oct 19, 2010 0:48:33 GMT -5
If we are going to consider the thought behind music as part of the "skill" then we would have to consider freestyle rapping as part of this skill. However, by this logic, we must then include the ability of writing music in advance as skill as well. Granted, many artists do buy songs, but many write their own. Therefore, a pop artist with minimal or no computer enhancement and a popular mainstream song would therefore fall under your category of the most skilled; beating rock bands, rap artists, and metal bands. Please note: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Songs_written_by_Avril_LavigneMy definition of skill was placed (unclearly, I apologize) upon the physical ability to make sounds. To include your definition of improvisation and writing would require us to include absolute shit like Lady Gaga, which I think we all can agree is not deserving of a #1 skill spot. Growling requires much, if not all, the skill required to sing using clean vocals. Growling requires everything from holding a note without it changing, pitch, timing, cues, to altering to different types of growling. ANY PERSON with a voice can rap. You have an incredibly minimal rhythm to keep to, you must maintain a flow, and that's honestly about it. The bottom line is that growling is something that takes years of practice while rap is dramatically easier to pick up. If you centralize on the ability to make shit up as you rap, then that's great, and I'm not saying that that lacks skill. But no one I've met listens to only freestyle rap. They listen to pre-written shit as well. So what's the excuse for that? Are you admitting that that is less skillful in order to solidify the previous point?
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Post by drizz on Oct 19, 2010 1:21:29 GMT -5
does that come with a bottle of tylenol after your ears were screamed into constantly for like 4 minutes. coolio
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Post by Tribble on Oct 19, 2010 2:32:04 GMT -5
In response to the first paragraph - If we were to consider thought behind music apart of a the overall skill of an artist, that wouldn't make a pop artist more popular than rock/metal bands or rappers. Since "thought" is only a fraction of what makes up our definition of skill (assuming we consider "thought" in the first place). We also must remember that vocal ability (the now obvious intended definition of skill) is still apart of our definition of skill. So even if a pop artist writes their own lyrics, for the most part they will likely lack the vocal ability that most rock/metal bands do. Which would make rock/metal bands still more skilled artists than a pop artist.
Now rappers require a lot less vocal ability than say a pop artist, but do require (for the most part) a lot more lyrical and other "thought" abilities than a pop artist. And with this current definition of skill, whether a rapper is better or worse than a pop artist is a debate in and of itself. However, now is not the time for that debate. So for the time being my point stands that if we are including "thought" in the definition of skill still rock/metal artists are still far more skillful than a pop artist. And for when that is proven not true, it is likely that the rock/metal artist of discussion actually does suck, or that the pop artist isn't actually bad. Also, it is irrelevant how successful a pop (or even rock/metal/rap) song or artist is because that part is not only very subjective, it is far less concrete then understanding an artist's talent is. A song could take off because of good marketing, or the video went viral, or a bunch of teenage school girls think the lead singer is cute. So the success of a song does in no way reflect on the skill of the artist and therefore irrelevant.
Now for the next two paragraphs - Lady Gaga sucks and does not deserve #1 anything ever (explained in the previous paragraph). Under the original definition of "skill" you had in mind, it is a no contest between growling and rapping. I fully agree that when it comes to the physical ability to make sounds (I'm assuming we all understand that when we say "sounds" we mean actually sounds worthy of music in their respective genres and not just random noise) that growling and everything that goes with it is much more "skill" based than rapping where the main focus isn't as much the sounds made, but rather the flow of words, lyrical creativity, etc.
Now for the last paragraph - You not knowing anyone that listens to only freestyle rap is great and all, but that in no way reflects on either definition of "skill" which we have so far established. Unless somehow sales/success made its way into the first "skill" definition this entire last paragraph has no real argument whatsoever. Now if sales/success is apart of your definition of "skill" as presented in paragraph one of this post, then both our arguments are retarded and we should all go admire all the "skill" Mr. Bieber has immediately.
I did focus heavily on improvisation for a reason rap is difficult and deserves some respect in my last post. I only did so, however, because at the time the interpretation of "skill" I gathered from your previous posts was not what your intended definition was. If you look at my previous post, I do make plenty of points specifically say what I'm arguing at the off chance I mis-understood your previous posts.
I'm excited to read all the "Too long, did no read/care" posts that will follow.
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Post by Derek on Oct 19, 2010 9:02:54 GMT -5
Celine Dion is considered pop most of the time. Mainstream and success can be attributed to awards won based on vocal ability alone. You didn't understand what I said. It is very hard and skillful to make words up as you go, but if you are using that as a point then you have to include all song writing. You're including intelligence, so you must include all intelligence, not just the intelligence that backs your argument. Lady Gaga's songs ARE incredibly well written in the respect that they are written to appeal to as many people as possible, and they do.
You ignored more than half of my third point with the "not knowing anyone who only likes freestyles"...
Thought in freestyles surpass many other genres, however, the freestyles are rarely what rap centralizes on and you have to include other writing. If you fail to see that, then you're dramatically skewing your argument to make a point.
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Post by Derek on Oct 19, 2010 15:19:56 GMT -5
Here's all I need to say.
Rap is to music what NASCAR is to sports.
/done.
PS: I'm moving this to debates since this turned into one and debates has like no posts
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Post by scanny on Oct 30, 2010 17:14:57 GMT -5
Rap isn't considered music by definition because it is missing one of the key elements to be considered music (I'm not sure what it is but my music teacher told me this in like 7th grade). I would like to support it though. Much of the rap that is mainstream and on the radio gives rap a shitty reputation mainly because it is all mostly shit about drugs, sex and beating women. Many of the very talented rappers are in the underground rap industry. This is similar to many metal bands because you really have to be into that style in order to know who the different artists are. Now, I'm not saying I enjoy rap because for the most part I don't. I do, however, believe that rap artists are very talented. For starters, many rap artists mix their own music similar to what Derek would do with techno ejay but with much higher quality mixers. Secondly, many rappers can free-style rap very well. Most of them free-style and rap battle at their concerts. Now, rappers may not be able to play an instrument but they do deserve some respect for their talent.
As for metal, many metal vocalists use a mixers when recording in the studio to make them sound like they are growling really well but in reality, they are just singing into a special microphone.
In response to tribble, there are very few talented pop vocalists left and all of the really talented ones have their voices reproduced by a computer digitally so they sound good. The truly talented singers like Mariah Carey and Whitney Huston are hindered by their age but are still very talented. In my opinion, anything you hear on the radio or that is in the top 100 is usually garbage.
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Post by Derek on Oct 31, 2010 22:20:01 GMT -5
celine dion... sarah brightman
although getting old, still sound amazing.
90% at least of my metal bands are not underground. Underground metal sucks. The bands I'm talking about are actually very highly rated and well-known just not in the USA.
I wasn't saying rap was completely lack of skill (in a serious sense), just that I don't think it compares to growling. Also, there are videos on Dark tranq's site and others with growls without mics, I dont know of any bands that enhance their growling.
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